Transcript 0:01 All right, Dan, thanks for joining me. Yeah. All right. Excited to be here. Yeah. All right, uh, let's just start with a little bit of a, an origin story. 0:09 You know, talk about yourself, your, your family, and kind of what led you to the work you're doing now. Well, um, way I like to start is letting everybody know that I'm the oldest of six boys. 0:23 [laughs] Um, my parents got married I think at 19, 18 or 19, and it's probably 'cause I was on the way. But they, they had six children, six boys by the time they were 32. 0:39 And to kind of put that in context, I had my first child when I was 32. [laughs] Yeah. And I got, I got three kids now and I got my hands full. 0:48 I cannot imagine having six kids that early on and that, you know, that quick and close in age. So, you know, I, I... 0:57 The, the reason I think that's relevant is just I was put in a position where I had a lot of responsibility. Um, and I think I re- learned, like, at a really quick age just how to be in tune to the needs of kids. 1:09 Uh, I had to be really in tune to my brothers' needs. I had a lot of responsibility helping and taking care of them, and, um, kind of led to this interest I had in working with kids when I got in, in college. 1:22 And had a, a, a couple interesting [laughs] situations. This girl I was dating, uh, I think my senior year in college, 1:30 I think she was about a s- semester ahead of me, and she asked me if I wanted to do this internship that she was leaving, and it was working with a child with autism in his home. 1:41 And I, I actually said yes to it, 'cause I was trying to impress her. [laughs] Um, but man, I d- I actually just kind of felt like I had my calling once I started doing that. 1:51 It really connected well with, with this kid and his family and, um, this kid had a lot of, like, aggression and behavioral problems and would, would attack people quite frequently, but he never did with me. 2:05 And his mom just really thought that was kind of different and unique. And kind of a long story short, he ended up being in my, in my wedding I think four years later as my junior groomsman. 2:17 And, uh, that kind of got me started in the field of, like, special ed and working in therapeutic schools and alternative schools. 2:23 And so probably for the next 15 years I was a therapist, a child therapist that did individual and group treatment. But, uh, came to a crashing halt, [laughs] 2:34 uh, this was probably about 10 or 15 years ago now, when I just got super fed up with the, the mental health field. You just feel like it's so... 2:42 there's such a huge focus, especially in treatment for kids, there's just such a huge focus on diagnosis, symptoms, behavior management, medication, um, all these different interventions, and it... 2:56 I, I just was starting to sense that, like, these kids were taking on the identity of their diagnosis. And it was, it was very... 3:06 Like, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I just knew that talking about problems and focusing on problems is depressing. [laughs] Yeah. 3:14 [laughs] But then to, to be a, a kid who hears from all these significant adults in their life about all their problems all day, like, how does that, h- like, how does that turn out well for them? 3:26 And I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but, you know, I w- I went to this training and it was called Transform the Difficult Child. 3:34 And while I was listening to this guy talk, he was starting to explain all this to me, like, really, really clearly, and I, I made a very significant pivot. I went from treatment for children to coaching for parents. 3:47 And I just felt like parents, if they have the right tools, they have the right framework, they have the right mindset, they're focusing on building kids up rather than fixing problems, 3:57 that naturally things start to improve and take care of themselves, and kids get better a lot faster. 4:02 And that's, that's just been my focus over the last probably 15 years now, is training, equipping parents, and coaching and consulting with teachers. 4:14 So I could probably go on for another two hours on kind of- [laughs]... my origin story, but from start to finish, that's kind of where I'm at. 4:21 So I'm interested, uh, so you've had, you know, a lot of siblings growing up. And so did you have an expectation sort of a- about what kids were like that this, this kid with autism sort of changed or altered? Hmm. 4:42 I- to be honest, I think when I started working with him, I had no idea what autism was, and I went into that with this idea of impressing, impressing this girl. But also I like working with kids. 4:56 I like being around kids. I was good at it. I relate well to them. Um, so I didn't really have an expectation 'cause I didn't really know what I was getting in. I was, like, literally green. 5:07 Um, but I, like, I have a r- like, a temperament, a personality, kind of an intuition just about, like, to tell when kids are uncomfortable, when they're stressed, when they need to be heard and listened to. 5:20 I, like, I had all of that training, and that just made that, that job or that specific family that I worked with, it... I just fell in love with it right away. And so what age was that probably that you were... Yeah. 5:36 That was 21. Okay. So there's a big gap between that and you having kids, like we talked about earlier. So how did, how did your, you know, 10 years later, basically, having kids of your own sort of alter some of that? 5:52 Yeah. I d- I felt like I was much more prepared to be a father, [laughs] 5:58 um, ju- just because I had spent so much time learning about child development, about what children need, how to help- Identify like what they're feeling, what they're needing, what attachment was a, um... 6:15 Yeah, I felt like I went into parenthood or fatherhood, like as a trained and seasoned therapist. I had been working with kids, but not only working with kids, working with the most challenging kids. 6:25 And what, what, what's interesting about that is 6:29 I haven't talked about this in a really long time, but I, I feel like working with really challenging kids helped me understand and discover, like when kids don't get what they're needing as children or when things go wrong, here's like the result, like behavioral problems, emotional challenges. 6:48 And it, it just gave me like a real clear focus that when I decided to start having kids and being a dad, that I was gonna make sure I was meeting those, and I knew what those needs were- Mm-hmm... 6:57 like at a very, very, like at the beginning. Yeah, I, I feel like there's a lot of sort of like with kids coaching the emotion that they have almost instead of the thing that causes like an outburst or whatever. 7:15 Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, the way I look at behavior, meltdowns, outbursts, mi- misbehavior, if you will, it, it's, it's really what is the skill or need? 7:28 What is the skill they currently don't have that the behavior is, is showing now? So if a kid's having an outburst, scream, it's the inability to express what they need. Maybe they don't identify what they need. 7:39 They don't know how to regulate themself. They don't know how to handle disappointment or being overstimulated. They don't know how to, um, ask for what, what they're needing. 7:49 Um, so it's not that they're defiant and disrespectful and mean, it's that they're struggling. And I think when you look at it that way, you have a lot more compassion, a lot more patience. 8:00 When you take it personal is when you're super reactive, impatient, and trying to get it to go away. Yeah. Okay. 8:09 Um, actually after we, we talked, uh, last week or two weeks ago, like I saw one of your posts that said, uh, "Become the parent your child needs instead of trying to get them to be the child you want." 8:22 And I mean, I feel like that was a real succinct way to, to put a really important, uh, message out there. And so can you talk about that some? Yeah. Um, [chuckles] 8:34 I, I was actually writing that about like a difficult day I was having with my son. I have three kids and they're all super different. I got a 20-year-old son, 16-year-old daughter, and almost a 15-year-old son. 8:48 And, um, I... My 15-year-old son, he, he's my, um, he's my gift. He's the one that feels everything super deep. He's very loving. He, he's-- I, I, I'm not kidding you. 9:03 He's probably said, "I love you, Dad," or, "I love you, Mom," or, "I love you, family member," um, more times in his life than any other person that I've ever met. 9:12 [chuckles] Like that, he just expresses how he feels, what he wants, what he thinks, what he feel, and sometimes super stressful. [chuckles] Yeah. 9:22 But, but, but like I just call, like he feels deeply and he's like the most loving, passionate, loyal person. But when he's having a hard time, that like emotional intensity, 9:35 he needs a very patient dad, not a short-tempered dad. He needs grace. He needs, um, me to like take a step back and not react and, and, um, let him work through things. 9:47 Where my oldest son, if I just call him on it right away, he's like, "Okay, cool. Thanks for letting me know." Like, he just needed the pivot. 9:55 And I, you know, when I, when I think about it, things maybe more selfishly, I'm like, "Okay, what kind of kid do I want? I want a kid that gets along with me all the time." Right. [chuckles] Like he's my best friend. 10:04 We do things together. Like if he screws up, I can just call him on it, and he's like, "All right, cool, Dad." I don't need back talk. I don't need str- like... 10:12 But my younger son, he kind of gives me the opportunity to grow in those. So I have to become different to give him what he's needing than what my older son needs or what my daughter needs. 10:22 And I, and, and I, I just think that when you're more focused on what your kids need rather than trying to change them to be more like what you want them to be, um, that's where the relationship really grows the most. 10:38 I feel like that's probably the thing you tell parents the most, that idea. Is that, is that pretty accurate? Um, yeah. A- a- ask me more. Let's talk a little bit more about that. What, what do you mean? Like that, 10:56 that in some ways it's their parenting, not their kids. You know, like you c- trying to fix a kid is a lot more difficult, so to speak, than sort of changing your approach to parenting. Oh, yeah, 1,000%. Yeah, I, I, um, 11:13 if you're in the mode of fixing your kid, you're inadvertently communicating that you're broken, there's something wrong with you. Mm-hmm. And kids are gonna resist that a thousand, like just tenfold. 11:25 Anytime a kid feels controlled or feels like they're not being accepted or they're being judged or critiqued, 11:32 what you're gonna get is resentment, you're gonna get retaliation, you're gonna get revenge, or you're gonna get shut down and just blind comp- compliance. 11:40 And, um, that's not healthy for them, and it's definitely not healthy for the relationship. And, you know, I, I, I was actually talking with, 11:49 I don't know if this was a colleague of mine or a, a parent I was working with last week, but we were just talking about how being a parent is like the number one like personal development course you can take. Uh-huh. 12:00 Yeah. [chuckles] Like it re- it literally reveals every area of your life that you need growth on or every area that you, um, are still hurting or wounded or broke, not broken, but injured and you need maturity on. Yeah. 12:17 Yeah, that's- I don't know about you, but do you ever struggle with patience? 12:19 [laughs] Like, nothing, nothing's gonna require more, uh, a more increase in your patience than having a kid that doesn't sleep well at night, or a kid that doesn't wanna go to school, or a kid that's in a bad mood or hungry. 12:35 [laughs] And it's happening all day, every day. Yeah, and it's, it's difficult not to take it personally, like they're doing it to you to spite you, and it's... I mean, you know. Yeah, for sure. 12:47 Um, so that, that whole conversation kind- kinda makes me think of, like, you know, you have this vision or idea, this picture of what your kid... like, what you want your kid to be, 13:00 and it rare- they rarely turn out the way you want them to be. You know, the, the five-year-old is not usually the five-year-old you wanted or expected. And so, like, how difficult is that idea of the 13:13 kid people have in their minds, how hard is that to drop as your children grow and become their own person and not, you know, some imaginary version that you had? Oh, boy. That... 13:25 I mean, this is, like, 90% of my work- [laughs]... with, with families is... Because the, the families I work with, they, they have kids that are challenging. 13:34 They don't, you know, respond to typical parenting approaches or discipline, and, you know, it's not because they're bad kids, it's just they're wired differently. 13:43 And when you as a parent don't have the right approach or right set of tools and you're trying to get your child to respond to a s- a system or a set of tools or, you know, a, a, a vision you have of how you want them to behave, 13:58 it causes a lot of suffering and a lot of agony and a lot of tension and a lot of sleepless nights. 14:03 You know, a lot of the parents I work with, you know, part of the work they have to do is they have to grieve the loss of the type of child they thought they were gonna have or they wanted to have. 14:13 And it's, and it's, it... and it's not a, a, like, a loss of a child, it's a, a, a loss of a dream or a vision or a picture they had. 14:20 And when they're able to let go of that, now you can kind of create something new versus just, you know, trying to fix the kid or get the kid to change to, to fit into your story. Um, yeah. 14:37 Yeah, I think a lot... That, that's really hard because when, when I'm working with parents, I, I, I usually ask this question somewhere in the first, you know, couple appointments. I'm like... 14:50 Let's say, say the kid's 10 years old. 14:51 I'm like, "All right, so when you found out you were expecting a child, uh, you know, you probably had a picture in your head of what the first year was gonna be like, the second year. 15:00 But like at year 10, you're probably playing catch, probably playing baseball. You're going fishing. You know, you're going camping. You're doing all these things that you had. What is it like 15:11 to be in reality where you're in a power struggle with your kid? They don't wanna leave the house. They're angry with you. They don't like, you know, to fish. They don't like to do anything outdoors." You know? 15:21 And that's where parents really start to break down and they're like, "This is not what I signed up for." [inhales] And that's hard. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I have a friend that I could tell... 15:34 Like, we've been friends a long time, and I could tell, like, when he was sort of not ready to accept that his kid wasn't what he expected. 15:42 And then I could sort of see him slowly over the years accept it, and then eventually sort of, like, enjoy sort of the, the new areas he got to explore because his son was into different things than he was. 15:55 And he- Yeah... he really, he really, you know, enjoys that and looks forward to it now. Yeah. 16:00 And, and, you know, I th- I think when you can get to the point where you're s- you, you stop trying to get your kid to do the things that you want them to be or do, 16:12 and you're more open to, like, what are their interests and how do I support that or how do I fit into that, um, that's where you really start to grow your relationship with your kid. You start to in... 16:23 Because they feel supported. They feel like their interests are valid. 16:29 You know, a lot of, a lot of parents inadvertently communicate to their kids that, um, there's something wrong with you because you don't like to do the things I like to do, or you're not the way I want you to be. 16:39 Um, and then they wonder why there's power struggles or meltdowns or tension or distance. Again, these are, you know, parents that are super loving and want what's best. 16:49 They just, they're not aware that this is playing behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There was, uh, 16:56 me and my family were on a trip a couple weeks ago, and, uh, like we, we discussed ear- you know, my, my son has, is, has autism. And, uh, 17:04 we were at this gas station, and they had this Monopoly version of, uh, of Oklahoma. And, uh, he kept like... He was pointing at the box, and he just kept hitting it, like with his finger. 17:16 I'm like, I'm like, "Don't do that," you know? "It might fall over." And, uh, this was a- after a very long day. We were on the way home. He was tired. But, uh, but he said, "I can't be like you." 17:26 I'm like, "What am I putting out there, you know, today at least, that makes him think that's what I want is for him to be like me?" And we've been through lots of counseling and lots of, uh... 17:35 We're very aware of all of this kind of stuff, and still it, it happens, you know, someone... with m- with me in a situation like that. Isn't it, isn't it funny how... 17:45 Or maybe not funny, but isn't it interesting how you redirecting him or reminding him to stop doing something gets interpreted in his head as- Hmm... you're, you're critiquing me. You want me to be more like you. 17:58 You're trying to change me. Mm-hmm. And we're like, "No, not at all. I just want you to stop being, like, annoying." [laughs] Right. Exactly. Or, or, "I don't want you to break that thing, and you're not being careful." 18:07 Exactly, yeah. Yeah. Actually, I'm trying to give you good advice. Just listen to me and we'll be great. Right. [laughs] Yeah. 18:13 A, a lot of our conversations start with me telling him to be easy, 'cause he's, he's very rough on things and, you know, I'm just like, "It's all right, man. Just be easy with it." 18:23 You know, Clay, that's, that's actually, um, something I think most parents miss, 18:30 is that what- whatever you give your energy to, whatever you connect to, give your time, your attention to with your kid, like good behavior, bad behavior, you're, you're always sending a message, 18:46 or, or at least they're receiving a message from you that most of the time you're not even trying to send. Mm-hmm. Yes. 18:52 So, like when they're misbehaving or they're doing something, they get corrected or you're actually, if you're connecting to him being too much or him being... I don't know, what's the opposite? 19:03 Him being too difficult or too- Mm-hmm... intense. 19:06 You might not say, "Hey, you're too intense," or, "You're too difficult," or like, "You're too impulsive," but that's the belief or that's the story narrative that they hear because you connected to that time where they were behaving that way. 19:19 And I had no idea, like when I kind of got at my crossroad where I shifted from therapy to coaching parents, I had no idea that that was what I was doing all the time. When, when kids were challenging, when they... 19:33 I used to work at a therapeutic school, you know, like they'd come past my, my office in the morning and be like, "Hey, Mr. Dan, can we talk?" Or, "Can we hang out?" And I was usually busy in the middle of something. 19:43 I'd be like, "Well, not, not yet. I'll come get you like during your appointment today." But as soon as they started throwing chairs or yelling at the teacher, you know, I got paged. 19:53 I dropped everything I was doing, came down there like, "What's the matter? Let's talk up- like, let's process through this. What can you do differently?" Like, I gave the best version of me. 20:03 I gave all this great advice, and I thought I was being like supportive, helpful, advice giving. But it was when they were struggling, so what... The only thing that they received is, "Mr. 20:15 Dan cares about me when I'm at my worst, and I must be bad to get what I need. If I want time with Dan or with Mr. Dan, alls I have to do is throw a chair and refuse to do my work. 20:27 If I want time with Dad, alls I have to do is tap this Monopoly thing." [laughs] Right. You know, and I, I don't know that they consciously think that- Mm-hmm... but that's what they learn. Right. 20:36 And then we wonder why, you know, some kids just struggle with the same behavior over and over. It's not because they can't control it, it's because they want connection. 20:46 And I had no idea that was going on, and I was just, you know, stressing myself out because I spent so much time trying to solve problems. 20:54 Didn't even know that I was actually saying, "Hey, when you're a problem, you get more of me." Right. 20:59 [laughs] So yeah, that's, that's, I think, one of the big things that when parents start to see that, that dynamic playing out and they stop participating in it, how behavior improves pretty, pretty dramatically. 21:14 So, like a lot of, you know, obviously a lot of this is about sort of accepting your kid, but 21:23 where do you sort of draw the line where, with parents where you're like, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to accept the bad behavior necessarily, like, you know, the discipline sort of aspect of all of it? 21:35 Yeah. So there's... The, the way I like to work, the framework that I work from, it's, it's got three components, kind of like a tripod, 21:46 and you need all three of these stands, all three of these legs working in unison to have a, like a sturdy system in place. 21:55 And if you're missing one of those stands, what's gonna happen is under stress, the whole thing's gonna fall over. So 22:02 when, when kids are struggling with behavior, when parents are having a hard time with their kids' behavior, they always wanna start with like discipline. Mm-hmm. 22:09 Like what's the consequence I can give to get this behavior to like go down or to go away? But it, but it's actually step, step three. 22:19 You have to get two steps in, in, in place first or two legs in first before you focus on discipline. So the, the three components are, how do I build my kids up? 22:30 How do I connect to give my energy, my time to the things that are going well, 22:36 so that I'm, I'm building a story, a narrative for them that says, "You're respectful, you're calm, you're competent, you're capable when you're, um, you're, you're accepted for who you are." 22:49 That that's the foundation of our relationship and, and building kids up from the inside. At the same time, how do you not get sucked into the drama, the power struggles, you know, the meltdowns? 23:01 How do you just become super stoic dur- during those times rather than reactive, impatient, trying to get problems to go away? Um, the lectures, the warnings, the countdowns, the threats and bribes. 23:14 That's my go-to when I'm really stressed is, "If you don't stop, you're gonna have this," or, "If you want that, you gotta do this first." It's just all trying to manipulate them to behave. Right. 23:24 So those are the first two stands. If you get those down and you got those solidly in place, then it's time to set limits and have boundaries and expectations. And the, the key with that, 23:37 I don't know how you feel about this, but I, I used to think what discipline meant was giving consequence when they were misbehaving. Mm-hmm. You do X, here's the consequence. 23:48 You know, and thinking that that's gonna motivate change. But I, I think my, my perspective now is discipline is teaching and training skills that they currently don't have mastered. And, and part of that is what... 24:02 how do you learn from your mistake? How do you take accountability when you make mistake? And, and a lot, a lot of times the analogy I like to use, it's like a, 24:13 a kid or a player dribbling a basketball and they step out of bounds. You know, the ref just blows the whistle and says, "Turnover." Right. You know, the ref doesn't chase a player down the court- [laughs]... 24:24 saying, "Hey, dude, like that's the third time. If you do that again, you're out." Or, um, "You got ADHD, it's hard for you to focus, so we're gonna give you warnings." 24:33 Everybody else doesn't get a warning, that's just an immediate turnover. Like, there, there is none of... That's how we parent. Right. Right? It's like, no, let's be clear. You stepped on the line, it's a turnover. 24:44 It's not a big deal, but just learn from it. Try again. Try again. And I think when you kind of create discipline that, that has that kind of spirit to it, you... 24:55 Not only are you more patient because you know your kid just made a mistake, they're not being bad, how do they learn from it and move forward? Um, 'cause, uh, uh, 25:08 a- again, I think when you're in the punishment mode, usually you're delivering consequences when you're frustrated, you're upset, you're trying to control the behavior- Mm-hmm... 25:16 to get it to go away, and kids are super resistant towards that. They start getting defensive. Nobody's open to learn when they, when they're in trouble- Right... and the adult around them's angry. It's more like- Yes... 25:28 how do I get this problem to go away? Yeah, I, I, you know, I mean, grown people don't work that way. If your boss is yelling at you, you're not learning very much, you know? Right. 25:39 And if they're criticizing you all the time, you're not inspired to work harder. Right. You either get better at hiding it- [laughs]... or you're working under a lot of anxiety where your performance is way down. 25:51 You know? So this is like, "Dude, you made a mistake. It's not a big deal. How are you gonna fix it? All right, go try again." Is, is there a skill you currently don't have? Because the, the other thing too is 26:02 I, I played basketball through high school. I played a little bit in college, and when my oldest... He started playing basketball, like, when he was, like, five or six. 26:13 I don't know if you've ever seen five or six-year-olds try to play basketball, but it, it, it's more like tag. You know, one kid's got the ball and he's running, but he's not dribbling the ball. 26:24 He's running out of bounds, not paying attention. All the kids are screaming and like, "Pass it to me, me, me, me." 26:31 Um, when the ref starts blowing the whistle and says, "Hey, you stepped out of bounds," like, the player stops and they look and they're like, "Oh, I didn't even, I didn't even know that was, that was there." 26:42 And then they do the same thing and the ref blows the whistle, and then they do the same thing and the ref blows the whistle. 26:46 At some point, they start paying attention to that boundary, and they start heading there and then they stop. They start correcting their behavior. 26:54 They start, like, managing their behavior, and then they go the other way. Now they've developed a skill of self-control and self-awareness and paying attention. 27:04 They didn't have that skill before [chuckles] the ref started holding them accountable. 27:09 And so, like, I think discipline is a critical component because if you're not holding your kid accountable, you're not helping them learn how to master a skill that they currently don't have. 27:20 And then, then you rob 'em of the opportunity of leveling up. Yeah, I've noticed, uh, with my son, uh, and this literally happened just the other day, like, uh, he's gotten to where he will recognize immediately 27:36 that he's done something he was not supposed to have done or, you know, had a, a meltdown or whatever through a, through a stuffed animal. That's what happened the other day. 27:46 And, uh, and you could tell he immediately realizes it and sort of... There's not a lot of punishment we could have done that would be worse than s- than you, than how he felt about, you know, what he had done. 27:58 Well, and that's, that's this, that... So we discipline our kids when they're younger so they become self-disciplined when they're older. He just self-disciplined himself. 28:09 M- meaning he did something he shouldn't, he recognized it, he, his conscience kind of guided him to stop doing that, and then he corrected behavior. Like, mission accomplished. [laughs] Right. Your life is a lot easier, 28:24 right? It, it... And another analogy I, I think is helpful to kind of explain this concept, it's when, when you're teaching your kid how to read, [coughs] 28:35 it, like, the, the skill of reading, first they learn how to identify letters in the alphabet, then they learn the sound they make. 28:42 Then you put letters together and you sound them and blend them, and then it forms a word. Then you put these words in a line and it forms a sentence. When kids are reading out loud, they're making all kinds of mistakes. 28:55 And what do you do when they make a mistake? You go back, you try it again. You sound it out a little bit slower. And then what happens over time is 29:07 they start reading, they get to the end, it doesn't make sense, and they go back and they correct the mistake themself. 29:13 And then they get to a- another level of skill where they read without making mistakes, and then they just skim. [laughs] Then they switch to audiobooks, they don't have to read anymore. Exactly. 29:22 But you don't freak out and yell at your kid and come up with a consequence because they misspelled something- No... or they mispronounced it. It's the same thing behaviorally. Like, your kid did something impulsive. 29:33 He realized it. He corrected it. Like, that's the second stage of discipline is when they're correcting themselves versus needing you to correct it and point it out to them. 29:42 But you gotta have that discipline to deal with the learning, essentially, in the, the first part of it and not... Yeah. Yeah. A- and, a- and the patience [laughs] 'cause it's maddening. Yes. Oh, yeah. 29:57 The patience is the thing. Yeah. Man. So, uh, what about technology? What are you, what are your feelings on sort of- I hate it... that? [laughs] I, I mean, I'm s-... I, I really mean that. I, 30:12 I was listening to a, a podcast, this is a while ago. I th- I think it was Dead Edge podcast. Okay. Larry was talking about this, and, um, 30:23 I guess one of the questions was like, "When is it okay to give your kid a smartphone?" 30:27 And his re- [chuckles] the, the guest or the person he was referring to said, "As soon as you're ready for their childhood to be over." [both laugh] Yeah. 30:35 And I, I mean, I think there, there's a lot of, like, validity to that because once- Your adolescents have access to technology, and all their friends are communicating that way. It, it, it just... 30:48 [inhales] Um, the in-person, the face-to-face, the time in the family, a lot of that you're just constantly competing with. And I, I hate being like, "Okay, screen time is up," or, "You only have- Mm... this much time." 31:04 It just feels like you're constantly in this battle managing something that wasn't an issue 20 years ago. Right. And of course, the problem is parents are trying to manage their own issues with it. I- Yeah. 31:18 Yeah, it's super addicting. I mean, I don't, I don't know about you, but there's days I don't have great self-control and I'm doing scrolling or... I think even last night, you know, uh, my wife went to bed early. 31:29 I think she went to bed, like, at 9:00. I got two teens, they're in their room hanging out, you know, playing games with their friends or talking on the phone. Um, not really talking on the phone, texting. Right. 31:40 [laughs] Or videotaping and then sending a message. Oh. Videotaping. And, um, it w- like, an hour went by and alls I did is watch, like, these Instagram reels. [laughs] Fucking hour. I'm like- Yeah... what am I doing? 31:53 Coulda read a book, coulda gone hung out with them. But, like, time just... It, it's, I don't know, it's designed to keep you hooked. Uh, and yeah, and I mean, there's so many times where I'll get on something. 32:06 Like, I will open my phone to get on, like, YouTube and look something up, and then like 20 minutes later I'm on Instagram and r- never got on Y- I forgot. 32:16 In the two seconds it took me to go to the app for YouTube, I forgot that's where I was going and clicked Instagram instead, you know, and just complet- Yeah... like, what am I doing? Like, it just drives me crazy, yeah. 32:28 Yeah, I think, um, [sighs] I think part of the problem is we're the first generation of parents raising kids with this temptation or this tool or device, and we haven't figured it out yet. 32:43 And we're also the first generation of parents that have 24 access to it ourselves. And I think we're starting to kind of get at the, the other side of like, "Wait a second, this isn't healthy." 32:56 Like, we're starting to see the side effects or the consequences of that, even in our own life, like where you were saying, like, "I didn't... I spent 20 minutes on something, I forgot what I was even looking for." 33:05 [inhales] Right? So I, I do start, I'm starting to see kind of a shift where there's a lot more awareness of, "Wait a second, this isn't healthy," or, "Maybe there's other things I should be doing." 33:17 But it, it's really hard to, to fight that battle when all your friends are doing it, or all your friends are communicating that way and you don't wanna be left out. That was... 33:29 Yeah, my son wanted a cell phone and I was... And I, one thing I was explaining to him, I said, "You don't understand, like, the, the social pressure you will have to, like, be communicative all the time. 33:39 Like, you'll get a phone and it'll be all fun," I said, "But then your friends, a week from now, your friends will be mad you didn't respond to them in three minutes from a text." 33:47 Like, there's just so much about it that's just beyond, "Hey, I'm gonna watch a YouTube video." It just creates so many problems that you don't realize. Yeah. 33:56 One, one, one thing that I did really well with my first two kids, I haven't done as great a job, uh, with my third. I, [chuckles] I think you kind of just get worn out after- [laughs]... 34:06 you know, after third and fourth. Like, the, the firstborn has to go through everything. Yes. [laughs] The last one, like, has it super easy, at least from the firstborn's perspective. But- Yep... 34:16 um, be- before I gave my first two a phone, I went through, like, a lot of the, like, "Heads up, here are some things that are coming down the pipe that you're probably not aware of." 34:28 Like, "Here's, um, what sexting is all about." Mm-hmm. "Here's how to identify, like, a predator. Here's how to identify..." 34:37 You know, like, preparing them for all, like, the potential potholes or traps that they could find themselves in, and then talking to them about ways to work through that or to get out. 34:49 And, um, especially for my daughter, I can't tell you how many times... 'Cause we, we have this software, it's called Bark. Mm-hmm. It kind of gives you an alert when there's any concerning stuff. 35:00 And she became a master at being able to pick off when there was, like, red flags and warning signs and... There were times, like, you know, somebody'd be trying to get her to give, like, a nude or something. 35:16 Um, and they weren't saying that, but she was, like, savvy and experienced- Mm-hmm... enough to know, like, "Hey, I think I know what you're up to." And she would even call 'em out. 35:23 She's like, "Are you asking for X, Y, and Z?" And then all of a sudden it would be deleted. Person left the chat room. 35:31 And, and to me that just, like, was so, like, so in- like, I was so proud of her and so encouraged by that because she knew what to expect before that happened versus get caught into that not even knowing, and then me trying to explain it to her after the fact. 35:48 She d- like, no teenager wants to hear what the parent has to say, right? So I, I think that has been a really effective way. Instead of like, "The phone is bad. You don't know what you're getting into. Don't do this. 36:01 Don't do that," which is my impulse, it's like, "Here's what's gonna happen. Here are some things. Here's, like, how to get out of it." And then when it happens all of a sudden, you're, you're, like, the genius parent. 36:13 Yep. And you're the trusted advisor rather than the person that's trying to control my life. Yep. No, that's good. Yeah, so right now, right, my, uh... And I- like, so my, uh... We f- we got my son a phone and, uh, 36:28 like, you know, it just sort of progresses slowly from, like, it sits at his desk, or sits at the charging station, then it eventually sits at his desk, and now it's in his pocket. 36:38 And all, all the time I'm like, "Dude, you c- you can't be walk- you can't be walking around the house with that in your pocket." Like, like, you're always close enough that if it rings, you could go get it. 36:48 You don't need to walk around with it. But- You know, then I catch myself doing the exact same thing, you know? [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, when's the last time you left your phone somewhere and forgot where it was at? 36:57 [laughs] How, how old's your son? He, uh, he just turned 13. 13. Just out of curiosity, what, what are your thoughts on 37:07 age for cell phones and how to safeguard against it, but- It, like it, it's so difficult 'cause like, like, uh, my son, like I said, my son got a phone, and now my daughter sees him with the phone, and so she wants a phone, and we're like, "Do we need..." 37:24 Like, it's like, do we wait two... Do we tell her she has to wait two years 'cause she's two years younger than him, or does she... You know, 'cause it seems unfair to her because they're so close in age. 37:34 She's like, "What's the difference really?" And, but [sighs] I'm kinda with you. I wish, I wish we could wait until he was 18 and make him buy it himself is really what I wish- Yeah... 37:46 we could do, but there's just so much, you know, like you said, all their friends d- are on it, and it's like, can we, can we control this enough, you know? And I don't, I don't know that we can, honestly. Yeah. 38:01 Yeah, there's this, uh, this book. It was called, um, Indistractable. I think I've heard of that. I think it was this book where the author was just talking about, like, the opposite of 38:17 distraction is not focus. It's actually traction. Okay. And, and it's, it's like you, you can't really measure if you're distracted unless you have an aim that you're supposed to be, like, working towards. Sure. 38:33 And any time you get caught off guard or, like, caught off from, from that aim or that goal that you're working on, now you're distracted. And, you know, I, I... 38:45 He, he was talking about all the ways to, to stay focused or on track and how to identify goals, but then he got into, like, how do you manage 38:55 your own kid's screen time, and he was all on, it's not about preventing screen time. It's teaching your kid how to have traction. 39:05 [chuckles] How to be focused, how to, like, have a goal, and how to set limits and identify when you're off track and course-correct. And he was like, how... 39:15 He was asking his daughter, I think she had one of those, like, God, the, not the iPads, the Kindles. Okay. You know, and she was probably, like, eight at the time. Well, like, how much time do you think is, like, 39:29 a realistic amount of time to be spending on this? You know, and he was thinking, like, she would say, like, three hours. [chuckles] And she was like, "30 minutes." 39:38 He's like, "Okay, yeah, I can agree with that, like, a 30 minutes. And what do you think would happen, should happen if, you know, you go over the 30 minutes?" 39:46 "Well, I think I should, you know, take a break and only go down to 15 the next day." And he's like, "Yeah, I'm all in support of this. If... 39:56 I'll get involved if I see you getting distracted from your goal, but I trust that you, you can keep yourself on track." And it was just, it, it was teaching self-discipline and trust versus trying to control and manage. 40:11 And I think that's, like, a necessary framework to be working from, especially around, you know, screen usage. And I, I was thinking, uh, as you were talking, like, 40:22 it's this just thing that's happened, and I, you know, it's, it's, like, with adults as well, like, the, the computer and the iPad and the cellphone are all sort of this big, long continuum now. Yeah. 40:34 And so, like, I was just thinking about my, my kids and, like, my son will be talking to his friend on his cellphone while they're playing a game together on the computer, and I can't just be like, you know, "Get off your phone." 40:48 He's actually using the phone for what you're supposed to use a phone for, to talk to someone. Yeah. 40:52 And so it's just this, like I said, it's a difficult sort of continuum 'cause it's just sort of part of all of your life. Are, are the schools that your kid goes to, do they use Chromebooks instead of textbooks? 41:04 Uh, as, as far... I don't think so. I think, uh, it was a big thing around here actually probably 10 or 12 years ago, but I think the schools have mostly went back to, to books- Really?... and all that kind of stuff. 41:19 Jeez. That's so weird 'cause, like, Illinois, that's where our kids go to school, and it's, it's, like, a serious problem. Like, kids all have Chromebooks. There's no, hardly any textbooks. 41:31 They do all their work on a computer, and you have this problem in class where the kids aren't on the right website. They're playing video games or chatting back and forth. They can cut and paste. 41:42 [chuckles] They don't have to write. They can just type and then s- autocorrect and spell check and voice control. It's like you're, you're really robbing them of critical thinking and proper brain development and... 41:56 So they, they have, like, specific, like, classes where they ha- You know, like, like, my son is really good at making, you know, Google Slide presentations and stuff, and so they have classes where they do those sorts of thing. 42:07 Like, they have a science class, and part of the class is they'll make a, a PowerPoint or whatever, or they have, like, specific labs where they're on computers, but it's not part of just, like, every class and... 42:18 'Cause his, uh, his backpack is really heavy, so there's real books in there. 42:23 [chuckles] Yeah, I, it, it's interesting that you, you're saying, like, school districts where you're at, they used to be like that, but for, you know, that was 10 or 15 years ago. 42:34 I'm like, we're just right in the middle of it. Is it, like, another 10 or 15 years before we can get back to books? My kids will be out of college. [chuckles] Right. 42:42 Well s- well, so my, my, both my parents are teachers, and at the school my mom taught at towards, she's retired now, but towards the end of her career, they w- they had all went to, to Chromebooks. 42:53 And, uh, and obviously I don't know how that school is now, but, you know, that's not in any way the, the way my kid, my kids' school is. So like I said, it was... That was like a, a big deal then. It was the first... 43:05 You know, the, the freshman class was the first class that got the computers, and it went up all the way through and, and it was a big deal. But- Yeah... 43:13 I don't know about other schools around here, but definitely the one my kids go to, it's not like that. Yeah. 43:22 Sounds like we need to move down to your area, or our area needs to get smart like your area, 'cause you guys figured it out already. And it's fun. I hadn't even thought about that till you said it, but yeah, that's... 43:32 Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. And one thing we do, we s- I started doing is, uh, like, to sort of give my kids some relief with YouTube, basically. 43:48 We've actually started watching YouTube videos with them, like, as a family. 'Cause it, it's not... They don't ri- at least right now, they don't watch anything that is an objectionable, you know, by our standards. 43:58 But, like, we'll just... This way they can... There's, that way there's 20, 30 minutes a day where we're actu- it's sort of a family activity and it doesn't- Yeah... 44:07 turn into this thing where we're telling 'em to get off all the time. Yeah, I do that. I've done that with my boys for years. It's... Dude Perfect is our number one. Mm-hmm. 44:17 You know, um, YouTubers that we watch, and then sometimes it's, like, MrBeast or, um... Is it Ryan Trahan? Yeah. Yeah. Or Trey Hill or something? Trahan is what it is. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. 44:31 Um, but it, I think it's important that you sit down and spend time watching the type of content your kids are, and you show interest in it. Yes. At first I was like, "This is ridiculous. This is stupid." 44:42 Like, "Shouldn't watch this." But, um, I'd much rather sit down and watch that with them and have a good idea what they're into, and then participate in that versus tell 'em how dumb it was and get off. Right. 44:55 [laughs] Um, let's talk a little bit about, like, parenting different children. Like, like, you know, like, my son and daughter are obviously different kids, and so, like, we don't parent them the exact same way. 45:12 And I don- I feel like that's a fairly new idea that... Do you run into that? Yeah. Like, maybe your kids are wired differently. Right. [laughs] They have different personalities- Exactly... temperament, gender, age. 45:25 Maybe they don't all respond to the same thing. Yeah. They're not lab rats. Yeah. [laughs] Well, you know, uh, uh, it, it's interesting too, because 45:35 I think especially the generation that my parents grew up in, like, their parents were, "You do as I say," and there is no wavering. 45:44 Like, kids weren't seen, or you never spoke up, or you didn't really have a lot of autonomy. And, you know, I think 45:53 our generation, the kids that are growing up are maybe s- you know, swaying a little bit too much on they have too much freedom in how they feel and what they need and what they want, and you change everything to, you know, cater to your kid. 46:05 But this idea that we should treat all the kids the same or parent all the kids the same, like, where in history does that work? [laughs] So 46:17 here, here's kind of my perspective on that, and this is the kind of the coaching model that I use. Because all, all the parents that I work with that have more than one child, they, they go through this, where it's like 46:31 we have a kid that's problematic, but then we have a kid who is really well-behaved. [laughs] You know, do we have to learn a new style and treat him different than her or vice versa? And the, the approach I use 46:45 is much more, again, that three stands, and how do you operate through that for your kids' specific needs? So you, you're not treating them differently, but if, if my job is to build 46:59 you up and to notice what's going well and to point out your character and your effort and, and help you feel loved and seen and noticed and valued, that's a h- like a human need. 47:13 And so, like, your kid's going to need that, and you better learn how to do that. 47:18 [laughs] When your kid makes mistakes, which they will, and some kids make a lot more mistakes because they have a lot harder challenges or a lot different issues, you need to be really patient, [laughs] 47:31 and you need to be, like, not reactive and have meltdowns when they're having a hard time. You know, that, that's a need for all kids. 47:39 And then you also have to have really clear expectations and boundaries and teach self-discipline. So if, if you have those three components, that's, that's, that's the field that you operate from. 47:55 But how you do that, there has to be some kind of, like, flexibility with that. My, my daughter can't stand it when I notice out loud the positive things that she's doing. 48:06 [laughs] Especially if somebody else can hear it. My son will be like, "Tell, tell me all about my greatness in front of the, the masses." Right? 48:16 So I have to, I have to be a lot more subtle with my daughter when I'm building her up. You know, I have to talk to her privately about that kind of stuff. 48:24 I send her text messages, you know, or voice notes or stuff, stuff that only she's gonna hear or read, and she can receive that. My s- my son, I can tell him to his face and he's, he's all good with it. Right? 48:38 So you just... I, I, I think when you talk about parenting different, it's like what are some different tools or different approaches you can use to get the same needs met? Does that make sense? Yes. 48:50 Yeah, like that's- Yeah... yeah, different tools. I, I, I'll just... I like the idea of thinking of parenting in general as giving kids tools. You know? I like that. Yeah. 49:00 Well, and the work that I do is to give the parents the tools- Mm-hmm. Yeah... 49:04 so that, you know, they're going, they're raising children with a, a full set of, like, a whole toolbox rather than just a hammer and a chainsaw. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Or a jackhammer. Right. 49:16 [laughs] You know, I think that's, that's, like, again, that generation, like, our parents grew up with parents that were jackhammers and- Yes... sledgehammers and crowbars. 49:26 [laughs] So, so is there something specifically that, like, fathers overlook, that they offer emotionally to their children that they sort of don't realize how important it is? 49:41 Yeah, I think your, your words of affirmation and your, like, physical touch and your presence is, like, critically important. 49:53 And I, I think a lot of fathers, men struggle with that because they weren't taught how to do it, or they see it that that's the mom's job or that's nurturing- Yeah... and that's too, you know, too emotional. Mm-hmm. 50:09 I think telling, telling your kids that they're loved and expressing love to them is really critical, especially, um, coming from their father. You know, what does real masculinity look like? 50:22 I want my daughter, um, to be drawn to a boyfriend or to, um, you know, her, her future spouse, one that is gonna cherish her and see her as valuable, and she's used to hearing that and experiencing that. Mm-hmm. 50:39 Um, I want my, my sons to know how to express love and affection in a manly way to their mom, to their future wives, to their future children. 50:55 I, I, I didn't get that growing up. Like, not, not that my, my dad didn't love me. 51:00 He, he showed it differently, but, like, the amount of times I heard him say, "I love you," or gave me a hug or told, told me that I was proud of him, like, I have really core memories of when that happened. 51:11 And even when I think about it, I get emotional 'cause it was so meaningful. But he, he did not get that at all growing up. He had no... 51:20 Like, the very little that I know about my grandfather is he was alcoholic, and he was super abusive, and he was not, like, healthy to be around. So my dad never learned that. He couldn't give it to us 51:34 unless he learned how to do it. Um, but there is, I mean, the oldest of six boys, there were six men on the planet right now that- [laughs]... like, would 51:45 love to hear their dad say how much he loves them, how proud he is, and how, like, he ex- like, to get a big bear hug from him. Like, those kind of... I think those are just innate needs. Yes. 51:56 A lot of fathers aren't, don't know how valuable that is. That's... I grew up very similarly. 52:01 Like, uh, there was no question that my dad loved me, but he, he showed it through what he did for me, not through words- Yeah... or through, you know, hugs or whatever. 52:10 And I remember ve- very vividly after, you know, my... his mom, my grandmother, passed away, uh, after, it was after the funeral, but it was some, it was, you know, uh, very near the funeral. 52:24 I drove my grandfather from, uh, the town, you know, the, the, the town where this had taken place to the country where he lives. It was about 30 miles. And, uh, I drove him back, and he said, "Thank you." 52:37 And it was a very emotional thank you, and it was the closest I've ever heard my grandfather s- come to saying, "I love you," basically, was, you know- Yeah... "Thank you for driving me from point A to point B." 52:47 [laughs] And in a very emotional time for me. And that's... [laughs] And so that's how my dad grew up. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that was like, you know, that, that was the full expression- Yeah... 52:59 of my appreciation and love. It was a- Yeah... a thank you. Yes. [laughs] Yes. And, you know, you, you can feel that. Mm-hmm. You can feel the heart and the intent. It's just, I want that to be the norm for my kids. 53:11 And yeah, and that's one thing I realized specifically with my son, was that he needed that. Like, I, I hug him. I tell him I love him, uh, just randomly for no reason, you know. 53:23 He'll be on the com- you know, he'll be on the computer playing with his friends, and I'll come and give him a hug, you know, and say, "I love you." And, uh, just reali- yeah, he, he needs that and, 53:32 you know, I, I didn't get that, and I don't feel like it necessarily, like, stunted me, but I feel like it might stunt hi... Like, he needs that in a way, I don't know, that I felt like I did. Yeah, I don't, I don't know 53:45 of any person that's grown up saying, "My parents telling me how much they loved me did damage." Right. [laughs] Yep. Right? I, uh, but I do know many adults have said, "I really wish I would've heard that more." Mm-hmm. 53:58 "I don't know that my parent did love me," or, "I didn't know how they felt 'cause they never said anything." Right. Right? But 54:05 hearing, "I love you," and that you're valued and you're competent, and I appreciate you, and I enjoy spending time with you, and I'm proud of you. I don't hear people saying, "God, I wish I never heard that growing up." 54:16 [laughs] Definitely. All right, uh, in 20 years, what do you hope... How do you hope your, uh, children describe you as a father? 54:35 20 years. So that'd be 40, 36 and 37. Man, that's a tough one, man. I, I actually went through this exercise where, um, 54:53 it was, like, imagine your kids at your funeral writing your eu- eulogy. Um, and that was, like, really emotional for me. I think for me it's, it's, uh, my dad deeply cared. My dad loves me. 55:08 My dad is someone I go to that knows what to do, and if he doesn't, he's gonna help me figure it out. It's my dad, um, is humble, and when he makes mistakes, [laughs] he apologizes and makes it right. And that, um, 55:26 he's someone I 1,000% trust with my kids. [laughs] Um, not, not only, like, to be safe, but, like, my, my dad is, um, gonna be a part of raising my kids. 55:41 Not the responsibility of raising the kids, but he's gonna be involved in their life because what he has to offer my kids need. Mm-hmm. Someone I can count on. Yep. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Okay. All right. 55:57 Well, like I said, I'll let you, I'll let you get to it, and, uh, I appreciate you joining me today. Yeah, Clay, thanks. I, I enjoyed this conversation. If, if guys want to, uh, learn a little more about you and, 56:10 you know, possibly, uh, get some help with their, you know, get some coaching, where do they get a hold of you? Yeah, probably the best thing is just to, um, to go to my website. It's The Compass 4 Life. 56:23 It's the number four, so thecompass4life.com. Um, you can reach out to me there. All my socials are attached to that too. I post on Facebook and Instagram, like, parenting tips and ideas all the time. 56:37 So you can get a hold of me that way as well. But all that stuff's on my website. Okay. Yep. And, uh, okay. All right. Well, thanks for joining me, and, uh, like, I really appreciate it. 56:47 It was, it was a good conversation. Thanks, Clay. All right. Talk to you later. All right. Take care. All right. Bye-bye.
